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As the lead singer of the Cult, Ian Astbury said at the beginning of 'Sweet Soul Asylum, 'This is where it all
ends...'
Subject: No, curse ME....
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/17/00 21:47
Dumbed down massacre storyline? Hardly.
Bah weep gra-nah weep ninny-bon!
I quite agree. It was dumbed-down AND mean.
Scully bo-bully fee-fi no-nully!
Shadowcrab
Subject: Taxi!!!
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/16/00 16:44
The "Poor man's Marauders" aka Neo launch multiple attacks against the X-men (Nightcrawler
and Reyes at the hospital and the X-men and their newest recruit The Bird on High Evolutionary's satilite HQ). Shadowcat steals a "Poor Man's Marauders" exoskeleton to find their HQ while Neo tracks Kurt
and Reyes down like dogs while Kurt tells Reyes she's going to have to give up her normal life for good and be an X-men full time...
Basically it's a dumbed down version of the Marauders Mutant Massacre storyline
without logic, reason, or drama. Damn Bob and Mark for not letting Chris use established villians in his opening storyarch!!!!
Slather on some "mean," and I'll say "ditto."
But get in the car, man! We gotta get outta here! Mobjority opinion catches us, and we're toast!
Shadowcrab
Subject: The Merry Marvel Gods have smiled on me!
Posted by: Wolvie's_Girlfriend* at 03/16/00 17:50
Low and behold! I DID recieve my first subscription issue today! I read the 100th issue and was not as impressed as I'd
hoped, but I'm very glad I got it anyway. Thanks to Shadowcrab and to Archangel for their.....rundowns. I really appreciate it and thanks again, buddies!
Subject: Re: The Merry Marvel Gods have smiled on me!
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/17/00 00:21
I don't think she's bolting, Miss Crabtree. We may have to leave her for the mobs. Darn, I so hate leaving a good brain for the zoms to snack on, don't you?
Lee Edward McIlmoyle, who rather likes the interior of Ms. Peel.
Subject: Re: Where did you here this?
Posted by: Rio... at 03/19/00 19:59
Hey Lee!
Umm . . . That comment was said in Wizard #102 . . . Now that I look back on it, it wasn't quite how I wrote it. Here's the actual quote:
"WOULDJA BELIEVE: The X-editorial team once envisioned a story during which Gambit's attempt to
comfort Jean would have led to a passionate kiss. The romance has since been nixed."
So I guess it had nothing to do with Chris' ideas. And I know you're miffed about some things, so
I'm sorry I couldn't help you out . . . But the things you pointed out, I sorta found kinda interesting . . . Oh well, different strokes as they say . . .
Rio
Subject: Re: Where did you hear this?
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/19/00 21:06
I'm going through changes, that's all. Doesn't leave a lot of room for allowance of things that don't thrill me, but actually set off alarm bells of the less than wonderful kind.
I've said elsewhere that Chris has some time left, here. He's always been a longview plotter, and you can't write him
off easily with only one issue in your hands. The 'interesting stuff' you mention is probably something that in and of itself doesn't alarm me one bit. In fact, I probably liked a least something about them
all, myself.
Chalk it up to a feeling that these just aren't the changes that are going to save the good ship Marvel, and that will,
in the passing of time, prove to be another terrible editorial direction choice that they won't be able to come back from before the market falls out from underneath them for good.
They've given up their familiar territory, and it will cost them in the long run to go running with the new breed of
comic stories, because they'll marginalize themselves more, and sacrifice what household name they've earned for themselves over the years, by trying to win back the controversial limelight they rarely ever truly
had. Darker than DC, sure, but they were never in danger of the Comics Code ruining them, like EC and other really un-children oriented stuff like that.
Anyway, Chris isn't in the crosshairs just yet. I'm just not convinced that this is the kind of image we want to
represent his triumphant return to the X-books.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Be Seeing You.
~The Prisoner
Subject: Re: Where did you hear this?
Posted by: Vecke at 03/20/00 19:10
How is this image different from what's gone before?
Subject: MESSAGE FROM THE AUTOMATED RANT SYSTEM
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/12/00 20:48
Hi, you've reached the Automated Rant System for [Shadowcrab]. [Shadowcrab] is unable to rant about
X-MEN
[Please be more specific. The ARS requires a(n) entry(ies) in the Issue Number field.]
X-MEN 100
because (s)he is (check all that apply):
a. Unconscious
b. Wishing (s)he was unconscious
c. SMIMBU*
d. Watching paint dry
Briefly describe cause(s) of condition(s) noted above, or use checklist below:
a. Pointlessly cruel treatment of character(s)
b. Motiveless behavior (see "e." below)
c. Random whining
d. Random suffering
e. Lack of context
f. Angst. Angst. Angst.
g. Bondage scene(s) involving teenage girl(s)
What preemptive reply(ies) (if any) would you like to add to this ARS message from [Shadowcrab]?
a. Ain't them some purty pitchers!
b. Love the art.
c. "a" and "b"
d. It only happens once a month.
e. Panels visible to the human eye.
f. Nice haircut.
* So Mad I Might Blow Up
Shadowcrab
Subject: Waiting for the *beep*
Posted by: Conn Seanery at 03/12/00 20:59
*BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP*
Hello?
Shadowcrab?
Are you there? Pick up if you are...
No?
Okay, well this is Conn...it's about 11:58 PM on Sunday, just wanted to know how you could get mad about an issue you haven't read yet.
Call me back.
Bye.
*CLICK*
Subject: Re: Waiting for the *beep*
Posted by: ellipsis at 03/12/00 21:14
Read the advance copy thoroughly (twice) at Hot Comics and Collectibles and at the Source in Saint Paul, Minnesota, at 3:00 p.m and 4:50 p.m. on Sunday, March 12.
ellipsis
Subject: Re: Waiting for the *beep*
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/12/00 21:19
Ditto. Would not presume to rant about something I haven't read, believe it or not. Sorry if there was no SPOILER ALERT. Had the advance copy to
myself for a good long time this afternoon.
Shadowcrab
Subject: Well *beep* me...!
Posted by: Conn Seanery at 03/12/00 22:36
I believe you. I wasn't aware you had a preview copy, I thought you were just dreading whatever was coming.
Conn Seanery
Subject: AUTOMATED BWA-HA-HA-HA SYSTEM
Posted by: BlueBeetle at 03/12/00 22:16
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! oh, man! you're such trip, Ms. Sunshine! oh, geeez...my sides are killing me. oooochie... oh, gods, the pain...
Beware of the Chaos Cheese!
Subject: I really have gone and done it, huh?
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/12/00 22:52
All this sunshine stuff was kinda my fault, I think, though Mr. Smith and now BB are going to have to own up for perpetuating it, huh?
Fortunately, she hasn't emailed to tell me off yet, so I guess it's okay, still. I'll keep you posted.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Subject: Re: I really have gone and done it, huh?
Posted by: Mr.Smith at 03/13/00 06:28
Didn't Ms.Crab use it at the bottom of one of her own posts? Along the lines of "I wonder why my moiker isn't little missy sunshine?"
~Russell
Subject: uh-oh
Posted by: BlueBeetle at 03/13/00 09:30
oh, i'm sure she knows the "sunshine" bit is all in jest. at least, i hope she does. if not, i'm, like, screwed. please don't let the bruises show this time, ms. crab! i'll be good, i promise!
Beware of the Chaos Cheese!
Subject: Re: I really have gone and done it, huh?
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/13/00 09:42
Yup! And the forking kids ran with it! We are NOT the representatives of the Lollypop Guild! Woo Hoo!!!
Incidentally, thanks to the current Progressive Conservative government in Ontario, they had to close the mental hospital on Hamilton mountain.
You never would have known that, huh? You didn't, didja, didja, huh?!?
Lee Edward Mcilmoyle, doo doo doo DOO-DOO...
Subject: Time to get out the spoon and start mixing metaphors....
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/13/00 15:46
Feeling brighter than a thousand suns, without the nasty radiation poisoning or an unmanageable half-life. No bruises, no butt-kicking, no kidding.
Maybe just a cool palm on the forehead of a certain Limbo-boy. Stay sane over there, sweetie...!
Shining on....
Shadowcrab
Subject: Aww, thanks, honey...
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/14/00 18:07
...this is definitely the best thing I've heard all day. I'm at Beanie's, fighting to get a new monitor up and running, or to be more precise, and older but much better looking monitor.
Problem: Jolene's video card is too sophisticated for what is otherwise a brilliantly clear and decent piece of plug and play hardware, and 11 year old magnavox. Her Hewie has really been on the skids for a
while, and it was TIME! The magnavox looks great. except she will have to adjust to minimum dpi setting for the foreseeable future. I think I might be able to bump her colour up some more, but it already looks good.
It's just the infernal size of everything. I can't reset the images any further. Jolene is running an AMD K6 (whatever that is...) with Windows 95 os... and there is no smaller size for her fonts and icons than the
one she's at... so frustrating. Hope she can adjust.
Anyway, enough tech talk... I've earned a break. I'm going to the magazine shop on the way home, and I'll buy whatever
new x-book is on the shelf, even if it's stupid old Cable, and I'm gonna write a review, just because I'm so happy, and I don't work tomorrow.
Love you, SC...
gotta go...
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Subject: Re: Waiting for the *beep*
Posted by: ellipsis at 03/12/00 21:56
Just trying to back you up. I thought all stores had preview copies. Hey when you say "ditto" do you mean you were at the Source or Hot Comics or even St. Paul? If so that would seriously rock. Cuz you are my hero. I read all your posts and they always crack me up.
ellipsis
Subject: I can't tell, or she'll be very cross with me.
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/12/00 22:48
I have the same problem with her posts, myself.
And while I can't answer for her, as it's just not polite, let me just say that I envy you your geographic location. `Nuff Said.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle, pining for the fjords, it seems.
Subject: You just did!
Posted by: ellipsis at 03/12/00 23:04
Now you are in for it , BIGTIME!!! Hey, Shadowcrab don't go SMIMBU on him - we are just harmless fans.
Lee is gonna get it...
ellipsis
Subject: NoooOOOOOoooooo......
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/13/00 09:38
I didn't do anything.
I merely inferred that your residency in St. Paul, Minnesota puts you in a better geographical proximity to Shadowcrab than I, who happens to live in Hamilton, Ontario.
There, plausible denial in place, Lee in Limbo goes off to do the boards.
Subject: Really? (Major spoilers, be warned)
Posted by: The Lucky One at 03/13/00 21:11
So am I to take it that you didn't like the advance copy, then? That's too bad. I haven't read it myself, but I've heard some things about it that sounded pretty cool, if they are true. Rogue finally having some control over her powers, her and Pete getting together, Kurt thinking of becoming a priest... huh. (Granted, the whole "member of the Neo is in love with Kitty" is reminiscent of Caliban, but still...) Maybe it's the execution that's lacking, huh?
Darn. Well, nothing left to do but wait and see for myself. And on that note, I'm outta here. See you all on Sunday. Till
then, au revoir!
-D
"The rule is, if you can't spot the sucker within the first half-hour of the game, then you are the sucker."
(Rounders)
Subject: Re: Really? (Major spoilers, be warned)
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/13/00 22:00
: So am I to take it that you didn't like the advance copy, then?
: That's too bad.
Not really. It just twisted my stomach in a knot, is all. Upshot is, I consider that my TICKET TO FREEDOM! ZIPPEE-YAH!!!
Shadowcrab
Subject: From the ancient one.... (Spoilers the size of Mankato)
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/15/00 14:58
I'm glad you liked it; I really am, as it's nice to see someone so honestly enjoying something; but this issue embodied everything my jaded old
head can't stand about the X-books. (Was it Augie DeBlieck--please pardon the spelling--who pointed out about three weeks ago that what today's comics really lack is joy? Not a sense of continually grinning like an
idiot, not that: just a simple sense of something positive and wonderful, somewhere. This issue, to me, is what he was talking about.)
Again, they're Team Reaction. What you perceive as danger and drama, I perceive (and maybe this is just because I read so many sad and similar but
"real" stories at work) as a man getting shot in the back while he's praying in church (that's just bad manners or bad form or just plain mean; sorry, Mr. C, were you trying to, oh, shock me?), and a
teenaged girl trussed up in a manner normally reserved for the video shelves in an "adult" toy store. All that was missing was for Storm to buy a cocker spaniel puppy and for the Neo to drown it in the
swimming pool.
(And, oh, wasn't going to go here, but what the heck: No one to say to Kitty, just as a friend, in her "What the--?" romance, "Who
is this guy?"--even if she got to snap back, "None of your business!")
Did love the art, though. Take the words away, and I'd stick around. As it is, these boots were made for walkin'....
One last "Oh": from me and Concrete Blonde. This one goes out to preacher-boy Wagner:
I told the priest: Don't count on any second coming/
God got his a** kicked the first time He came down here slumming/
He had the balls to come, the gall to die, and then forgive us/
No, I don't wonder why; I wonder what He thought it would get us....
Have fun....
Shadowcrab
Subject: Re: From the ancient one.... (Spoilers the size of Mankato)
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/16/00 00:39
Well, I can't say as I blame you. I haven't picked it up, yet, but it sounds like the first phase of the revolution is to be a bloody coup.
Now, I feel I need to make my usual disclaimer: I like dark. I like moody. Comes to that, I like gritty realism. I like them a lot. A whole lot. But I'm a dinosaur, and I have read a lot, and seen a lot, and I
don't feel there is some great cosmic imbalance in the happiness and light department. I don't think there should be a requisite number of hours in a day spent dwelling on the dark things in life, and just how
inconsolably sad the frustration of being incapable of surpassing them is. See, as a teen I had angst coming out of my ears, and as I did my college period and stuff in the early ninties, I still had a fair bit of
angst to share with the world. But the longer you look at any image, the more it starts to diffuse and lose all sense of contect, the lines kinda of blurring everywhere you look. These hyper-realistic crime stories
with mutants and humans hating each other on top of all the regular problems of growing up in a hostile environment may add a level or two of realism that makes the kraft dinner taste more like lasagna, and you want
to sit down for more. But you can get full, too. I can't devour as many peices of a good lasagna as I used to, and I feel the same about my angst-filled mutant books. I don't want to collect Archie books, but I
definitely like my dark serials to be from the smaller companies, where the writers can write a finite series of troubles and travails that can and do get resolved, one way or another. I guess my thing is, I like
the pain to end.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle, off to bed ASAP.
Be Seeing You.
~The Prisoner
Subject: Moderation in all things...?
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/16/00 02:36
I guess my thing is, I like the pain to end.
Oh, sweetness, amen to that.
In "Legend," Tim Curry, as the Lord of Darkness, asks, "What is light...without dark?" To which I invariably reply: "What is peanut butter...without jelly?"
Sleep tight.
Shadowcrab
Subject: What is peanut butter without jelly...?
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/16/00 12:54
...sticky and much in need of a tall glass of milk.
In the interests of x-converation though, allow me to say that
darkness without light (or vice versa, for Tim's sake) would be like Logan without Nightcrawler to pal around with. We've seen it before, but except for a few incredible exceptions, who really likes the results
better without than with. This here be the dividing line between those of us who smile alot, and those of us unwashed heathen types who frown too much. Where do you stand, pardner? Mind, watch where you set those
feet of yours, mister. Them size tens is liable to get shot off'n you be stepping in the wrong space, y'hear?
Lee Edward McIlmoyle, who tires of giving up threads so the malcontents can monopolize in misery and dismay. Smile,
gawdammit!
Subject: Gotta run...! Or, "Send more cops..."
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/16/00 14:09
Holy half-a-macaroon! Size eights, if you please (though sometimes it seems side-to-side, front-to-back, no difference...)!
Why am I feeling like Jonathan in "The Mummy," chanting "IM-HO-TEP...IM-HO-TEP..." as he's swept along by the zombie mob en
route to the car...?
Better break free and run like holy hotplates for the Peeler before they realize I hated it. I really, really, really hated it. Marvel Presents:
Rocketship to Planet Depression! All-new, all-mean, all-crabby, all-suffering! Your Favorite Characters Wearing "Kick Me" Signs! (No, ME, Mr. C! Kick ME! It's MY turn!)
Men on Film: SNAP*SNAP* Hated it!
Feets, don't fail me now!
Shadowcrab
Subject: Re: Gotta run...! Or, "Send more cops..."
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/17/00 00:04
Kay, sweetie, I get your point. Drop me a line, and we'll discuss alternatives to discussing X-men, 'til Chris does
something that reassures you he's not as much of a jerk as Xavier. (oops, guess what back issues Lee has been rereading lately.)
Lee Edward McIlmoyle, who also loves comics without ANY superheroes in 'em, if you like.
Subject: Re: komments and kwestions
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/16/00 14:18
i like the idea of kitty keeping a couple of wolvy's old bone claws. its kinda sick but i like it. it keeps with kitty's new attitude.
Yeah, a little date rape'll tune up your whole attitude, right 'nough....
Now we can all start yowling, "That wasn't date rape!" Oh, yeah, this is some funnnn stuff....
Shadowcrab
Subject: Re: komments and kwestions
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/17/00 00:08
You know, I better get to a comic shop and pick this issue up pronto, because I just haven't had a chance yet, and I'm
definitely scared, now. I thought you might have been perhaps joking a bit, but you really meant it: Chris got Kitty in a bad place, huh?
You know, I have to leave, now, because the only word that comes to mind right now is a four letter expletitive that
rhymes with truck, which would just get moderated out, and I just have to go say it, right now.
Bye guys. Back later.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Subject: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: the Hornet at 03/19/00 07:29
I have been reading some of the recent "revolution" issues and I must say that I have seen
nothing very impressive. What suprised me was how dull the counter x line has been. I have not seen x-force yet but so far gen x and x-man don't even have 2% of the quality and class that planetray or the Authority
had. Cable was okay but I hope we get to see more of Stacy and irene. So far the only book that got my interest was Claremonts x-men. That was pretty good and possibly the best x-men issue seen the last issue of Joe
kelly. I still have high hopes for the core x-men title but so far this revamp is nothing like the brilliant one they had in 1991.
the Hornet
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/19/00 12:00
Hey Hornet, Long time no call.
To be honest, I'm even more cynical than you are. I found the 100 issue of X-Men to be very well drawn, poltted and
scripted, but I definitely found certain subject matter to be a bit questionable for a major mainstream cimic to be depicting, and I can't sya for certain that I like the pacing. I'm inclined to think Yu needs more
time to adjust to Claremont's plot style. Certain frames that really needed to be there to be convincing were not, and meanwhile, Yu's homage to Micheal Manning was a little unsettling, considering the venue. I have
some hope left, because, while I have no interest in the Neo so far (not even a little spike. heh heh), I do suspect that Chris has spent some considerable time thinking about the possibilities. Now I wonder if he
realizes just how sick to death I am of retcons, and that he's now in series doo doo for retconning Kitty (and I'm NOT talking about Mark Powers' de-aging gaff.). Make me care about the Neo before you try turning
one of my favourite mutants into one, Chris. Bonehead.
Anyway, Marvel's on a timer. If I haven't fallen in love with something in the core titles by July 1st, the honeymoon is
over. That gives Chris more time than he deserves for entering with a veritable date-rape/bondage scene, using Kitty, no less. Yes, certainly, give her a stronger edge, Chris. It's been coming for a while. That's
what we want, now, anyway. But what's with the B&D scenes, guy?
There's kids in the room, Chris. Watch the glamour shots from Masochism Monthly, okay?
Lee Edward McIlmoyle, who would like to give the new stuff a chance, but he's just not getting what he needs from comics
here;
Inspiration...
Be Seeing You.
~The Prisoner
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: BlueBeetle at 03/19/00 17:12
i thought the whole "bondage" scene with kitty was cool! muahahahahaha!!!
Beware of the Chaos Cheese!
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Vecke at 03/19/00 18:47
if she had been date raped, wouldn't she have mentioned it to someone, or at least to herself? I missed that part.
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/19/00 20:39
A man takes you in the midst of a kiss, overpowers you, and when you wake up, you are completely bound and left alone in
the dark, with no idea what has transpired. It doesn't have to be sexual assault to be date rape, though the general interpretation is thus. Kidnapping girlfriends is not kosher, Vecke. It was done using a form of
assault on her in a non-threatening situation by some schmuck she was supposed to be having a nice evening with. He took advantage of her, and could have done unspeakable things to her, while she was unconscious.
That he had time to strap her into the B&D cat suit rather insinuates that he might have had every opportunity, and that, if he didn't it was only because he was saving it for later. I don't give him the credit
necessary to assume that he has a noble side that puts him above such a misdeed. He abused her, and whether it was a sexual assault or not is academic. He was a fiend, and I hope she guts him.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Subject: Re:-my opinion
Posted by: Mr.Smith at 03/20/00 07:28
I agree with your comments here, but I don't agree with the earlier comment on the 'tie-up' scene. I
personally had no problems with it, and whilst I'm not a pre-teen or child, I think aiming a book, that is or has the potential for being picked up by children, so that it does not offend parent sensibilities would
be a bad idea. Getting away with sexual imagery and swear words is the domain of the 'mature readers' books, everything else falls to the mainstream market for comic books. I would also suggest that pre-teens and
children would have no problems with any imagery in the vein that is being mentioned here. Either there would be a lack of comprehension of what such an image MAY denote, or they would understand it fully and form
their own opinion on it.
Russell
Subject: Re:-my opinion
Posted by: sapbuckets at 03/20/00 20:39
Either there would be a lack of comprehension of what such an image MAY denote, or they would understand it fully and form their own opinion on it.
I agree. Why does everyone assume the image is sexual in nature? Does it not occur to them
the bonds are meant for RESTRAINT, to keep her from ESCAPING? Restraint doesn't mean sex.
Bah weep gra-nah weep ninny-bon!
Subject: Re:-my opinion
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/20/00 21:05
Not bonds like that, budlet. There's a very strong, not-so-subliminal subtext in those images.
Shadowcrab
Subject: Thank you!
Posted by: ellipsis at 03/20/00 12:44
A man takes you in the midst of a kiss, overpowers you, and when you wake up, you are completely bound and left alone
in the dark, with no idea what has transpired. It doesn't have to be sexual assault to be date rape, though the general interpretation is thus. Kidnapping girlfriends is not kosher, Vecke. It was done using a
form of assault on her in a non-threatening situation by some schmuck she was supposed to be having a nice evening with. He took advantage of her, and could have done unspeakable things to her, while she was
unconscious. That he had time to strap her into the B&D cat suit rather insinuates that he might have had every opportunity, and that, if he didn't it was only because he was saving it for later. I don't give
him the credit necessary to assume that he has a noble side that puts him above such a misdeed. He abused her, and whether it was a sexual assault or not is academic. He was a fiend, and I hope she guts him.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Bravo Lee. Very well said. Considering that a woman has a one in three chance of being raped or assaulted (usually by someone she knows) in her lifetime, I consider Kitty's situation depressingly realistic.
What I dread is the love/hate relationship Marvel will soon be promoting. "I like totally hate you for like trying to kill my friends and kidnapping me and tying me up and stuff and junk. BUT, you do surf like
a dream and are so radically cute and all" Does this sound like Kitty to anybody? I don't think so.
I will say for the record that whenever a guy made me feel the least bit uncomfortable or showed even a glimmer of stalker mentality I would dump
them immediatly. If the behaviour continued I would send my four older brothers after him. Kitty is too smart to fall for this. It bothers me that she has fallen for it. Most of all it bothers me that most of you
GUYS have fallen for it too. Like this is a perfectly normal way of ending your third date. I hate to sermonize, I like to keep it light but this really got my goat.
From a woman's point of view....
ellipsis
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Blue Jeans at 03/20/00 06:24
He was a fiend, and I hope she guts him.
So tying someone up and holding them prisoner is bad, but gutting someone is good for the young and impressionable 13 year olds out there?
BJ
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Shadowcrab at 03/20/00 16:20
As if--AS if--in a BILLION years that was what Lee was trying to say! Jesus, people, here we see a pocket version of the idiot hairsplitting that
goes on in sexual assault cases in this country every day! Look, you want me to dig out some McKinney's or some Minnesota Statutes Annotated, so we can argue what needs to be penetrated, if at all, and with what, so
all of us can understand scientifically and with great precision why a scene like this makes some of us so freaking uncomfortable? God! Or maybe we should all troop over to WESTLAW to gawk at the caselaw and
statutes on this stomach-churning crap.
Bravo, Lee. Bravo again! And ellipsis: I'm watching your back, too, sister!
Shadowcrab
Subject: Bravo...
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/25/00 01:45
And you, too, my sweet lady. You can drag me anywhere, anytime. Maybe not directly to work, first, though, okay. Little sight seeing, little picnicking, little consentual naughtiness... your choice, of course. Bondage gear is not essential.
Thank you, Crab lady. Heart shapes and kissy noises...
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Kinnigit at 03/20/00 07:17
"It doesn't have to be sexual assault to be date rape..."
erk!.. trapped in... crushing grip .. of.. logic..
Ni!
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Rio... at 03/19/00 19:46
I don't think she was. My understanding was that she was kidnapped and tied up. I really didn't have that much problem with the scene, and while it was risque for a mainstream book, I think it shows guts on Marvel's part to allow it to stay in the book.
Rio
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/19/00 20:51
Or blatant ignorance.
I don't think he did, either. That's not the issue. The image of her tied up and helpless wasn't even something like the
vague shackle imagery used by Byrne in the Seventies. She was done up in leather straps and such. Skin tight. With very obvious sexual features prominantly displayed in profile, in a questionable state of duress.
Tied up and tied down is not necessarily horrific, but it is not appropriate for a teen to young adult magazine that can easily be sold to preteens and children, and parents none the wiser, because it's the X-Men,
after all. Call me ignorant, or deliberately obtuse, if you must, but it was there in a comic book that any kid can pick up, and some aparently still do (Spiderandy is apparently 13 or thereabouts, according to that
comic critic Westerman who was in here a week ago as millvale some such number or other. Just think about that.). It's a high horse stance I'm taking here, and I apologize. I don't want to start a big thing, but I
do object, and I wish they hadn't done that. The image is too... graphic. It's not pornographic, but it does a pretty good job of suggesting something not expressly sexual but definitely indicative of a sexually
charged nature. That is a highly questionable thing to do, under the circumstances.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle, who doesn't WANT to drag sexual politics into the discussion, but it's just not the right arena to
leave such messages unchecked.
Subject: WHY WHY WHY??
Posted by: PopNinja <mailto:popninja@aol.com> at
03/20/00 12:19
"Tied up and tied down is not necessarily horrific, but it is not appropriate for a teen to young
adult magazine that can easily be sold to preteens and children, and parents none the wiser, because it's the X-Men, after all. Call me ignorant, or deliberately obtuse, if you must, but it was there in a comic book
that any kid can pick up, and some apparently still do..."
Why are scenes of bondage inappropriate for children, but scenes of death and mayhem okay? The biggest problem we have right now with
people like yourself, Lee in Limbo, is that you only want to censor what YOU find inappropriate. Some of us don't find things of that nature offensive. Some of us find violence of any kind offensive. But then again,
some of us realize that this is just a comic book, and it's not Cherry Poptart, it's X-Men. And even better, some of us can decide what's right for our own children and do not need someone to tell us what is
appropriate for our children. If that shot of Kitty in bondage is what you consider sexually suggestive, then I take it you are into hiding the Victoria's Secret catalog from the younguns as well.
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Vecke at 03/20/00 13:59
Y'know, there has been a lot of innuendo in X-Men before this. What makes this scene so much
different? It's not like X-Men was this happy go-lucky book and all of a sudden it's evil now with that one page! You're misinterpreting the status quo for the book. Even under Claremont, before the whole
"watchmen dkr" thing (both of which are great), there was stuff with sexual connotations. Didn't Kitty propostion Peter in one issue where they were about to die?
Subject: tie me up,tie me down....
Posted by: ellipsis at 03/20/00 14:49
One word: CONSENTUAL
Another word: Jailbait
That is what makes this panel worse. Kitty has no choice in this situation and is only one red rubber ball gag away from being completely helpless.(Domina is going to have to give Seth a very vigorous lashing for forgetting the gag) Add that to the fact that she is supposed to be 16....
Nobody is trying to condemn sex here. It's great!! Consentual is the key term. Mutie, Neo, human ....NO means NO!!!
ellipsis
Subject: Re: the revolution-my opinion
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/25/00 00:52
Yup. She suggested it by way of asking why they couldn't. Peter set her straight. It was during the Brood Saga, with
Paul Smith doing art chores. No force. No minors actually having sex. Merely questioning it. No more insidious or perverted than anything else in comics aimed at teens. No bondage either.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Subject: Re: tie me up,tie me down....
Posted by: Vecke at 03/20/00 18:53
I still don't see where you're getting this "rape" thing. What dialogue is there to support this? If there isn't, doesn't that make your gripes with Yu and not Claremont?
Subject: Re: tie me up,tie me down....
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/25/00 01:30
Vecke.
Listen to Limbo-guy on podium, please. Podium is very high up, and Limbo guy is very low to ground, so climbing onto podium very difficult. Please listen first time, okay?
Kathrine Pryde did not get sexually assaulted by the felonious Neo spy she thought she was going to be romanced by. But
sexual assault is only a part of the date rape, dominance & submission, consentual versus forced contact issue here. If you can't see that there is a very sexually charged kidnap scenario here (He zapped her in
the midst of an embrace, during their private date. Think about it, please. Think about it.), I fear for any girls you meet in the future, pal. They're going to have to impress upon you the very simple, very clear
message that, without consent, violation of a persons' body in any way, shape or form, is, for all intentsand purposes, illegal, and subject to criminal charges.
Actually, I'm too tired to have this discussion tonight. Come talk to me via email. Everybody with a bone to pick or
their two cents to add is welcome. But I'm telling you, it was not what was on the page that I had a problem with, but what page it was on: the most widely distributed, family entertainment oriented (yeah, it's
extremely dubious, but that's how it is perceived. Get over it!) publication, aimed at teens and young adults. Us dinosaurs are just hanging on for something that isn't quite and yet is more than enough, but in a
good way. We may have more sophisticated tastes, and this may be the mag that at various points has written extremely adult themed stories, but it is still aimed at youth, for all that. Deny it all you like.
Sorry, Vecke, this isn't really directed at you. You just don't appreciate my viewpoint on the matter for the time being.
I'm still a little riled, and I'm too tired to continue. I'll pick this thread up tomorrow.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
[I editted my spelling and grammar errors for this one, due to my extreme fatigue at the time of
posting. This is what I meant to say. Apologies.]
Subject: Thanks, ellipsis. (nt)
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/25/00 00:54
Subject: Is that an invitation?
Posted by: The Lucky One at 03/20/00 16:17
Y'know, there has been a lot of innuendo in X-Men before this. What makes this scene so much
different? It's not like X-Men was this happy go-lucky book and all of a sudden it's evil now with that one page! You're misinterpreting the status quo for the book. Even under Claremont, before the whole
"watchmen dkr" thing (both of which are great), there was stuff with sexual connotations. Didn't Kitty propostion Peter in one issue where they were about to die?
Yeah. And it appeared, by the art, that Scott and "Jean" (the Phoenix Force) slept together shortly before she
became Dark Phoenix. And it was implied that Dazzler and Longshot had hopped on the good foot and done the bad thing together back in the Australia days. (She came out of his room in the middle of the night, wearing
his jacket and little else, while he just had briefs on.) And Mystique and Logan once got freaky in a sleazy motel room near Salem Center. And Diamondback, in Dazzler's body, tried to seduce Logan. And Bobby
(Sunspot) was described not long ago by some random girl as being "great in the sack". And Betsy and Warren were living together in his apartment. And Mystique and Destiny were widely hinted at as being
lovers. And probably about a hundred other instances that I don't remember right now. There's certainly sex in the X-books, no one's disputing that.
One word: CONSENTUAL
Another word: Jailbait
Three words: Five-to-ten...
That is what makes this panel worse. Kitty has no choice in this situation and is only one red rubber ball gag away from being completely
helpless. (Domina is going to have to give Seth a very vigorous lashing for forgetting the gag) Add that to the fact that she is supposed to be 16....
Which is, as a certain Mr. Grimm might say, quite a "revoltin' development". Kitty has to be at least 18. For
one thing, it was pretty obvious during Warren Ellis' run on Excalibur that she and Wisdom were sleeping together. (Hey, since Wisdom is basically a comic avatar of Ellis himself, does that mean he's got the hots
for Kitty himself? Hmm... scary thought.) A scuzzball Wisdom may very well be, but even he'd probably balk at sleeping with a minor. Plus, let us not forget the infamous "Mutant's Night Out" issue of
Excalibur, where the whole team went to a pub. Kitty was able to get alcoholic beverages, and if I'm not mistaken, the drinking age in Scotland is 18. (I could be wrong, though.)
Speaking of which, who's stupid idea was it to invite Brian along on that one? I don't care if he's "got a
handle" on his problem or not, you do not bring a recovering alcoholic with you to a bar. At the very least, someone should've balked at it or given some sign that they were worried about him.
[Sorry 'bout going off on a tangent, there- that's just always bugged me. Now, back to your regularly scheduled post...]
Nobody is trying to condemn sex here. It's great!! Consentual is the key term. Mutie, Neo, human ....NO means NO!!!
Very true. And I don't really disagree with anything you or Lee has said. I haven't actually read the issue (rassum
frassum Waldenbooks- why can't you get issues on TIME for once? Grr...), so maybe I shouldn't personally comment on it... but then, that's never stopped me before, right?
;-)
But if the scene really is as bad as you guys describe it, I'll probably have qualms with it too. Bondage in the X-books
just ain't cool, especially with minors.
[Err... can I still think that Magik is mighty fine lookin', though?]
;-)
-D, going to take a cold shower now.
Now this is the Law of the Jungle,
As old and as true as the sky,
And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper,
But the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk,
the Law runneth forward and back,
For the strength of the pack is the wolf,
And the strength of the wolf is the pack.
Subject: Re: Is that an invitation?
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/25/00 01:06
I always thought Illyana was very cute, when she has grown to her teen years. Mind you, I was a teen, too, so it was all above board. You're not far beyond that yourself, so it's still okay, but only when she's the adult version.
By the way, have you gotten a copy, yet. You should read it. It's not like I think nobody should read it, and especially
not those I call friends, because my friends are all hip enough to get my point. That's how they get to be my friends. I won't tell you what has to happen for them to become MORE than my friends, but I will say, I'm
not a saint, here. I just have a bone or two to pick with my old hero, Mr. C., about wrapping Kitty up tighter than seran wrapped leftovers in a book that is (get this straight, gang) aimed primarily at a teen to
young adult market. Don't think so? Then what's it doing on the comic racks at 7-11?
Sorry, Drew. This is not directed at you. A certain flaming goofball who rarely posts here but felt justified in coming
in here and trying to hand me my head is due for a trouncing, and I'm warming up.
Don't worry, Pops, I see you over there.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Subject: Is that an invitation?
Posted by: ellipsis at 03/20/00 17:39
[Err... can I still think that Magik is mighty fine lookin', though?] ;-)
-D, going to take a cold shower now.
Sure Drew, you can think whatever you want about Magik(that is the beauty of fantasy)As for me I'm not in the position of making any invitations to any young, athletic college men. My hubby might get jealous!
Save some cold water for me....
ellipsis
Subject: Oh my stars and garters...
Posted by: The Lucky One at 03/20/00 21:34
[Err... can I still think that Magik is mighty fine lookin', though?] ;-)
-D, going to take a cold shower now.
Sure Drew, you can think whatever you want about Magik (that is the beauty of fantasy)
Heh heh heh. Now, before everybody starts thinking I'm a total perv who can't discern between fiction and reality, all I said was that she was drawn very nicely. Especially by Art Adams. (Mmm... Adams...) Yowza! ;-)
As for me I'm not in the position of making any invitations to any young, athletic college men. My hubby might get jealous!
Save some cold water for me....
Gah! Temptress! We shall speak no more of this- I've seen all those old movies, and the last thing I need is some jealous
husband stalking me. It just never seems to turn out very well, for all parties concerned. (I've read Ellis' column here at CBR too, and I *definitely* don't need some "Mad Jack Babymaker" coming at me
with a nail gun, looking to add my two best friends to his collection, if you know what I mean. How does Ellis even come up with that kind of stuff? This is the guy who's writing 3 X-books now? Has the world gone
mad?!?) ;-)
-D, tongue planted firmly in cheek.
Subject: Re: Is that an invitation?
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/25/00 01:07
She IS a firecracker, though, ain't she?
Must be one great guy she married.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Subject: Re: Oh my stars and garters... Posted by: ellipsis at
03/20/00 21:53
Sorry lucky one. I didn't mean to scare you. The truth is my hubby and I are both incorrigible flirts and we are far too secure with each other and ourselves to get upset about it one way or another.Besides I enjoy being a temptress, and men have this annoying habit of falling at my feet.
Careful were you plant that tongue....
ellipsis
Subject: Re: Oh my stars and garters...
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/25/00 01:10
See what I'm on about...?
Sheesh. Now I have to go take a cold shower. Drat.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
Subject: Re: Oh my stars and garters...
Posted by: The Lucky One at 03/21/00 20:11 :
Sorry lucky one. I didn't mean to scare you.
Scare me? Nah. I'm not smart enough to be scared by much. 'Cept for snakes- damn things really freak me out, even the little ones. But hey, Indy's afraid of snakes too, and he's still pretty cool, so I figure it's okay.
The truth is my hubby and I are both incorrigible flirts and we are far too secure with each other and ourselves to get upset about it one way or another.
Cool. Those are the best kinds of relationships. Hope to find one myself someday... but no rush, right? Still plenty of time for that later.
Besides I enjoy being a temptress, and men have this annoying habit of falling at my feet.
Well, I can certainly understand that. I'd probably do the same myself; therefore, my advice to you is to make sure you're wearing pants, not a dress. ;-)
Careful where you plant that tongue....
Oh my... don't think that'll be much of a problem, as I'm getting a little tongue-tied now...
-D, who's kinda surprised no one's made the obvious joke about "getting Lucky"...
Subject: Foul Temptress...
Posted by: Lee in Limbo at 03/25/00 01:12
heh heh heh heh heh
That's my boy.
Lee Edward McIlmoyle
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